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 Forced Ascenion: An Impossibility. Relations to Ifrit and Rosa

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PostSubject: Forced Ascenion: An Impossibility. Relations to Ifrit and Rosa   Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:48 pm

Posting this game,this time newer and slightly improved. Comments would be most welcome before I post it on WH.

I feel, for some of you, some of this may be me blurting out the obvious. I apologize for that, but I felt like I needed to do something.

I’ve seen this term thrown around the forum numerous times. It’s mainly been associated with what’s happened to Ifrit and Rosa, and been said to be a punishment. However, I believe this is not possible and is not what happened to those characters.

First, we have the conversations between the cult members during the first cycle. The first clue we have about ascension comes from BoogeymanHere:

Quote :
Posted by BoogeymanHere on Sep 17th, 2010
I don't know, I think the fact that we've only been operational for a day and already DR and Paradoxicle are going to shoot up some place is pretty funny. If you guys go through with it, see you on the other side, I think my Ascension's coming up soon - I've been feeling a surge of something spiritual over the past two days.

According to this member, ascension is associated with a surge of spiritual feelings. This would imply that the basis of Ascension, the pre-enabling of it if you will, begins within one’s self with an arising of spirituality. Forcing ascension on someone would skip this entire stage, as the person would never feel spiritually attuned to any of the cult’s followings due to the fact that they do not want ascension or are not ready for it. If we take BogeymanHere’s word and assume he knows what he’s talking about (none of the members, even moderators, corrected him in the comments), this appears to be the first stage of the process for ascension. Not following the order would probably make an already incredibly hard process even harder.

Secondly, we had Nekko’s ascension occur practically right in front of us. After it occurred, Ifrit posted
Quote :
And congratulations to Chris, we all knew he had it in him! That's the first successful one we've had in a while!
This implies, that even with “his” approval, which Nekko needed according to his first post on the website, ascension even under the most ideal of circumstances is a very hard process usually ending in failure.

If we assume forced ascension is possible, then we would also be able to assume that it most likely has an even larger margin of error as the target is not ready for the process spiritually. We can say this because of BogeymanHere’s post.

Third, we have the prophecy about Kelbris, particularly this line:

Quote :
The Order was still young then and Kelbris was the first member to have been talked to by Her. Rather than Ascending him, however, these whispers informed him of how The End will come about

This line implies that Luna is the one that makes the decision for ascension, or at least takes part in it. It also implies that Luna has the power to engage ascensions entirely by herself. I would think like most deity’s Luna would not want those that are unworthy to be ascended. Nekko was incredibly excited for his, and the moderators of the website showed much adulation and some jealousy towards him. Therefore, we can say that Ascension is a sought after state within the cult, and something that the cult would not want people that are not within the cult to reach, or people that are flakey in the cult to reach.

From this, I would think that, in terms of what living cult members think, ascension is not a punishment. Regardless of what current ascended members feel, living members do not regard ascension as a punishment because they do not know what lies for them on the other side. They believe it will lead them to become closer to Luna. They believe it is something that will end in good. Unless every last cult member is the most hardcore kind of masochist that gets off with eternal mental and psychological torture, I don’t believe any living cult members views ascension as a punishment for the previous reasons.

Now, onto those who people believe to be “force ascended”: Ifrit and Rosa. First, I would like to talk about Ifrit.

Ifrit has been shown to not follow the rules of the cult. During the first cycle, one member posted that:
Quote :
And remember - we're continuing with the whiteout - that means no using these names or posting outside of here. No facebooks/youtubes/twitters/whatnot. Mr D has been EXTREMELY strict on this rule

However, from Ifrit’s Email, which uses his forum name, we also learn his real name, Matt Hubris. Considering it appears Mr. D does not want these names associated in any way with the real people that they apply to in the outside world, it appears Ifrit has broken that rule by talking to us while using his email. This would put Ifrit in trouble with the cult rules and the cult authority, implying that he’s not following them as strictly as he should. Why would he go through the trouble of making an alias for the website, Rodney R., but allow people to associate his username with his real name in his email used specifically for the website?

Ifrit then was the first to undergo the “door knocking” phenomenon, which led him to disappear from the story forever. However, on his contact page now, we can see the elegy (I’m going to assume BEN for the sake of not trying to include other theories in here) laughing at us saying “Expecting to find someone else?” This would actually imply, unless BEN and Kelbris were working together, that BEN got to Ifrit before Kelbris could. Why is this important?

If we assume instead BEN reached him, then Ifrit would not have been ascended. Ben has been associated with ascensions because he went through one, but there is no proof that BEN has any ability associated with ascension by himself. If Ifrit was silenced/captured/killed by BEN, then it would be safe to assume at this point he was not “force ascended”.

If we still say Kelbris got to Ifrit, then we can still say, according to the nature of ascension in this story, that Ifrit was not ascended. Ifrit broke one of the rules of the cult. Ifrit would have been captured by Kelbris and silenced by Kelbris or another higher-up (most likely Mr. D) instead according to what I’ve written above, since Ifrit broke the whiteout rule. He’s received his punishment. Ascension would be, in terms of the cult, an entirely inappropriate response.

Finally, we have Rosa. Rosa began talking to us in Ifrit’s stead. She had no idea where he was, and it’s unsure what her exact relation to the cult is. Considering the amount of information she knew about the cult, Ifrit either told her a lot (a no no, as we see how far that got him when he started relaying information to us; not even other cult member’s families new anything about the cult) or she is a member herself. She also gave sensitive information regarding the fabric of the website to Ryukaki. Once she was removed from the playing field, we find her on the forum trying to relay the clue to how to get into Wayward Horizon to us.

This is probably were the whole idea of forced ascension came from: Rosa’s location on her profile being “bastionof” in binary. However, I don’t believe she was ascended. First, that would imply she somehow deserved ascension. It would make much more sense if the cult members captured and silenced her. It’s impossible that they permanently killed her, because she still passed out new information to us.

We then have the curious case of binary itself. Duskworld, Nekko, ???, and Rosa speak in Binary now. It’s assumed the former three are ascended, and for good reason. However, the nature of the messages contained within the binary imply that the ascended are suffering dramatically except for ???. If Rosa was ascended, why isn’t she suffering? ??? seems to be the only person immune to the psychological shock, but we don’t know why. However, those recently ascended appear to be lost and suffering. If Rosa was ascended, it would have also been fairly recently (after Nekko but before Duskworld, but it also could have been after. We don’t know exactly what may have happened after she vanished), and it would make sense according to past precedent that she would also be suffering. However, she is not. She is not suffering from, what appears to be “newly ascended syndrome”.

Codes have also been used to hide information from “it” or BEN, according to Ryukaki. It could just be as plausible Rosa was using a code for the same reason, but this is purely speculation. Binary may also just be the code of choice for this Arc as opposed to ascii codes, but that’s an OOC reason for an IC event. However, I don’t think we can say Rosa was ascended with the current information.

Therefore, I have concluded that the Rosa and Ifrit are not ascended, and ascension cannot be forced. Using something as venerable as ascension as a punishment seems like it would be a highly inappropriate response, considering how much the other members “wish it could be then” even when someone worthy is ascended. You would not give a man a heavy piece of gold to carry home because it would be hard to carry.
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PostSubject: Re: Forced Ascenion: An Impossibility. Relations to Ifrit and Rosa   Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:32 pm

I am glad that the idea of forced ascension is being discussed again. It is a widely accepted idea by the community, one of which I have been skeptical from the start. I am going to try and point out as many possible holes and improve on this to the best of my ability. Prepare for tough love.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spanosa wrote:
Ifrit then was the first to undergo the “door knocking” phenomenon, which led him to disappear from the story forever. However, on his contact page now, we can see the elegy (I’m going to assume BEN for the sake of not trying to include other theories in here) laughing at us saying “Expecting to find someone else?” This would actually imply, unless BEN and Kelbris were working together, that BEN got to Ifrit before Kelbris could. Why is this important?

If we assume instead BEN reached him, then Ifrit would not have been ascended. Ben has been associated with ascensions because he went through one, but there is no proof that BEN has any ability associated with ascension by himself. If Ifrit was silenced/captured/killed by BEN, then it would be safe to assume at this point he was not “force ascended”.

I have to say Span, I am pretty impressed with your theory overall, but this part made me facepalm hard.

Your very first sentence states that Ifrit has "disappeared from the story forever." Technically we don't know if he is gone forever, and we should treat it as such. When stating a canon fact in you theory avoid implying anything that wasn't explicitly mentioned in the canon. All the community knows is that Ifrit cannot be contacted at this time, it doesn't say that he is gone forever.

"...I'm going to assume it is BEN." Why do you hurt me like this Span? Now I have to rave and rant. When creating a theory you want to build point by point to support your overall claim. You are claiming in this theory that forced ascension did not occur to Ifrit or Rosa. To make this a valid claim, each point you use in your theory must be support and explained with canon fact. When you 'assume' something in a theory it blurts out to the reader "This just became speculation!" This is what you never, ever want your readers to think when they are reading your theory. If someone is placed into a skeptical mindset at all during the document, it will insight the default mentally of believing that your theory is invalid. To use an assumption to support one of your key underlying points makes that basically invalid. If you want to run with the idea that the Elegy statue on the page is BEN, you are going to need to provide analysis and citations for this idea. This will make your argument far more convincing.

Spanosa wrote:
If we still say Kelbris got to Ifrit, then we can still say, according to the nature of ascension in this story, that Ifrit was not ascended. Ifrit broke one of the rules of the cult. Ifrit would have been captured by Kelbris and silenced by Kelbris or another higher-up (most likely Mr. D) instead according to what I’ve written above, since Ifrit broke the whiteout rule. He’s received his punishment. Ascension would be, in terms of the cult, an entirely inappropriate response.

The only issue I have here is it is never canonically stated the Kelbris is still operating under the Moon Cult. He was resurrected, has posted on the MC site, and was a MC member, but things may have made him change alliances. It also isn't confirmed that Kelbris is still currently a high-ranking MC member either due to the fact that he disappeared for a duration. Since it is widely canonically accepted that Kelbris took Ifrit and Rosa it is okay to continue with this overall idea though.

Spanosa wrote:
This is probably were the whole idea of forced ascension came from: Rosa’s location on her profile being “bastionof” in binary. However, I don’t believe she was ascended. First, that would imply she somehow deserved ascension. It would make much more sense if the cult members captured and silenced her. It’s impossible that they permanently killed her, because she still passed out new information to us.

I think it is important to note here the full password used. Rosa gave us "bastionof," and the full password was "bastionofdefense." I don't think in anyway "bastionof" could indicate she was forced ascended in the first place. I can see how people can draw this conclusion, but if just doesn't make complete sense. If she was forcefully ascended, why would she call it a bastion? A bastion is a haven that people can take refuge in for safety, and as you said in your post, it seems to be a psychological nightmare to those who have successfully ascended. Then the second part being defense also would counter the ascended argument as well for the fact that if Rosa ascended she would have no defense any longer. If their goal was to capture and ascend Rosa then that would me she would've failed in her 'defense.' I just don't how people can honestly believe Rosa was forced ascended in the first place.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time for some possible additions.

I think it would be a good idea to compare ascension with the Christian ideal of moving onto heaven after death. Ascension, like going to heaven, is the end goal for all Moon Cult members. Being forced to ascend is like being forced to go to heaven. Isn't that what they wanted to do in the first place? Why would you punish them with the greatest gift you could possibly give to them? If they could also forcefully ascend people why wouldn't they just force ascend everyone? That's what everyone is waiting for, so why wait any longer?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are my overall thoughts.

I like this idea and it is a claim that I have been holding myself. I am glad to see that someone has gotten around to actually addressing this idea to the public because I think there are many misconceptions about Ifit's and Rosa's disappearance. Beside what I mention, and a few grammatical errors, it was a pretty solid theory.

In the future for writing theories I would recommend that you write in third-person. You don't need to write in first because the reader already knows that everything you are saying is you opinion (beside the stated facts). I cannot plead this any stronger, but avoid using second-person in your theories. Writing in third-person makes your theory far easier to follow and more professional looking.

If I could make a request, could you directly cite your sources and quotes? It makes it easier for the reader to follow and helps guide you along the process of creating a better theory. It takes more time to do this, but it is worth it in the end. I wouldn't mind seeing more citations in general as well to better support your under-lying points.

Great job on the theory though, and I hope to see this up on WH very soon.

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PostSubject: Re: Forced Ascenion: An Impossibility. Relations to Ifrit and Rosa   Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:16 am

Version 2.0. The TR1 tells me how to get shit done edit.

I feel, for some of you, some of this may be me blurting out the obvious. I apologize for that, but I felt like I needed to do something.

I’ve seen this term thrown around the forum numerous times. It’s mainly been associated with what’s happened to Ifrit and Rosa, and been said to be a punishment. However, I believe this is not possible and is not what happened to those characters.

First is the conversations between the cult members during the first cycle. One of the first clues about ascension comes from BoogeymanHere:

Quote :
Posted by BoogeymanHere on Sep 17th, 2010
I don't know, I think the fact that we've only been operational for a day and already DR and Paradoxicle are going to shoot up some place is pretty funny. If you guys go through with it, see you on the other side, I think my Ascension's coming up soon - I've been feeling a surge of something spiritual over the past two days.
(Youshouldnthavedonethat.net, First Cycle)

According to this member, ascension is associated with a surge of spiritual feelings. This would imply that the basis of ascension, the pre-enabling of it, begins within one’s self with an arising of spirituality. Forcing ascension on someone would skip this entire stage, as the person would never feel spiritually attuned to any of the cult’s followings due to the fact that they do not want ascension or are not ready for it. BoogeymanHere probably knows what he’s talking about since none of the members, even moderators, corrected him in the comments. This appears to be the first stage of the process for ascension. Not following the order would probably make an already incredibly hard process even harder.

Secondly, there’s Nekko’s ascension. After it occurred, Ifrit posted
Quote :
And congratulations to Chris, we all knew he had it in him! That's the first successful one we've had in a while!
(Youshouldnthavedonethat.net, First Cycle) This implies, that even with “his” approval, which Nekko needed according to his first post on the website, ascension even under the most ideal of circumstances is a very hard process usually ending in failure.

If we assume forced ascension is possible, then we would also be able to assume that it most likely has an even larger margin of error as the target is not ready for the process spiritually. We can say this because of BoogeymanHere’s post.

Third is the prophecy about Kelbris, particularly this line:

Quote :
The Order was still young then and Kelbris was the first member to have been talked to by Her. Rather than Ascending him, however, these whispers informed him of how The End will come about
(Theories, Luna Prophecy)

This line implies that Luna is the one that makes the decision for ascension, or at least takes part in it. It also implies that Luna has the power to engage ascensions entirely by herself. Luna would not want those that are unworthy to be ascended; something that probably any deity in her stead would feel. Nekko was incredibly excited for his, and the moderators of the website showed much adulation and some jealousy towards him. Therefore, Ascension is a sought after state within the cult, and something that the cult would not want people that are not within the cult to reach, or people that are flakey in the cult to reach.

In terms of what living cult members think, ascension is not a punishment. Regardless of what current ascended members feel, living members do not regard ascension as a punishment because they do not know what truly lies for them on the other side. They believe it will lead them to become closer to Luna. They believe it is something that will end in good. Unless every last cult member is the most hardcore kind of masochist that gets off with eternal mental and psychological torture, I doubt that any living cult members views ascension as a punishment for the previous reasons. It is akin to forcing someone to go to heaven. They must be ready, willing, and have done the proper things in life.

Now, onto those who people believe to be “force ascended”: Ifrit and Rosa. First, I would like to talk about Ifrit.

Ifrit has been shown to not follow the rules of the cult. During the first cycle, one member posted that:
Quote :
And remember - we're continuing with the whiteout - that means no using these names or posting outside of here. No facebooks/youtubes/twitters/whatnot. Mr D has been EXTREMELY strict on this rule
(Youshouldnthavedonethat.net, First Cycle)

However, from Ifrit’s Email, which uses his forum name, his his real name, Matt Hubris, is revealed. Considering it appears Mr. D does not want these names associated in any way with the real people that they apply to in the outside world, it appears Ifrit has broken that rule by talking to us while using his email. This would put Ifrit in trouble with the cult rules and the cult authority, implying that he’s not following them as strictly as he should. Why would he go through the trouble of making an alias for the website, Rodney R., but allow people to associate his username with his real name in his email used specifically for the website?

Ifrit then was the first to undergo the “door knocking” phenomenon, which led him to disappear from the story indefinitely. However, on his contact page now, we can see the elegy statue laughing at us, saying “Expecting to find someone else?” I believe this would imply that either BEN or DROWNED got to him first, considering what has been connected to the Elegy Statue.

We are able to connect DROWNED to the elegy statue because his picture on the website changed to a picture of the Elegy Statue when moused over, which most likely implied who was really talking to us.

BEN can also be connected as the elegy statue. It’s alluded to in TheTruth.rtf. While BEN never claims it, Jadusable says
Quote :
The statue? You’re inside my computer now?
(TheTruth.rtf) and he is responded to with a simple “yes”. BEN never corrects him. While that’s not absolute proof, he never says no to either statement either.

In addition, this BEN in his computer appears to have the same effect on Jadusable that the elegy had: paranoia and sense of extreme fear. It’s written throughout the entire TheTruth.rtf document with things like
Quote :
FUCK YOU BEN I’M NOT TALKING TO YOU
(TheTruth.rtf) being written several times, and
Quote :
I’m beginning to see the Elegy Statue everywhere.
(TheTruth.rtf) When the Elegy Statue first appeared, in the summary of Day Four.wmv, Jadusable claimed several terrifying feelings:
Quote :
I screamed as the thing just stared back at me with that haunting facial expression
Quote :
By this point, I was on the verge of hysterics…
(Summary of Day Four.wmv). The two entities appear express the same power, so I believe they can be connected.

If we believe BEN reached him, then Ifrit would not have been ascended. Ben has been associated with ascensions because he went through one, but there is no proof that BEN has any ability associated with ascension by himself. If Ifrit was silenced/captured/killed by BEN, then it would be safe to assume at this point he was not “force ascended”.

If we believe it was DROWNED, then we cannot gather any result. We have no idea who this is, their motives, or their connections. Either way, this does not support ascension, as it does not support connection to the Moon Children.

If we still say Kelbris got to Ifrit, then we can still say, according to the nature of ascension in this story, that Ifrit was not ascended. Ifrit broke one of the rules of the cult. Ifrit would have been captured by Kelbris and silenced by Kelbris or another higher-up (most likely Mr. D) instead according to what I’ve written above, since Ifrit broke the whiteout rule. He’s received his punishment. Ascension would be, in terms of the cult, an entirely inappropriate response.

However, in another vein, if Kelbris is not associating with the Moon Cult any longer, then I believe that makes the decision easier. If Kelbris is not working with the Moon Cult, why would he offer someone one of their high positions, and does he even have the ability to do so? If he’s turned away from the cult, Luna would not be pleased. Luna would not allow him to commit such a blasphemy.

Finally, there is Rosa. Rosa began talking to us in Ifrit’s stead. She had no idea where he was, and it’s unsure what her exact relation to the cult is. Considering the amount of information she knew about the cult, Ifrit either told her a lot (a no no, as we see how far that got him when he started relaying information to us; not even other cult member’s families appeared to know anything about the cult) or she is a member herself. She also gave sensitive information regarding the fabric of the website to Ryukaki. Once she was removed from the playing field, we find her on the forum trying to relay the clue to how to get into Wayward Horizon to us.

This is probably were the whole idea of forced ascension came from: Rosa’s location on her profile being “bastionof” in binary; specifically, the fact that it is written in binary. However, I don’t believe she was ascended. First, that would imply she somehow deserved ascension. It would make much more sense if the cult members captured and silenced her. It’s impossible that they permanently killed her, because she still passed out new information to us.

We then have the curious case of binary itself. Duskworld, Nekko, ???, and Rosa speak in Binary now. It’s assumed the former three are ascended, and for good reason. However, the nature of the messages contained within the binary imply that the ascended are suffering dramatically except for ???. If Rosa was ascended, why isn’t she suffering? ??? seems to be the only person immune to the psychological shock, but we don’t know why. However, those recently ascended appear to be lost and suffering. If Rosa was ascended, it would have also been fairly recently (after Nekko but before Duskworld, but it also could have been after. We don’t know exactly what may have happened after she vanished), and it would make sense according to past precedent that she would also be suffering. However, she is not. She is not suffering from, what appears to be “newly ascended syndrome”.

Codes have also been used to hide information from “it” or BEN, according to Ryukaki. It could just be as plausible Rosa was using a code for the same reason, but this is purely speculation. Binary may also just be the code of choice for this Arc as opposed to ascii codes, but that’s an OOC reason for an IC event. However, I don’t think we can say Rosa was ascended with the current information.

Therefore, I have concluded that the Rosa and Ifrit are not ascended, and ascension cannot be forced. Using something as venerable as ascension as a punishment seems like it would be a highly inappropriate response, considering how much the other members “wish it could be then” even when someone worthy is ascended. One would not give a man a heavy piece of gold to carry home because it would be hard to carry.
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PostSubject: Re: Forced Ascenion: An Impossibility. Relations to Ifrit and Rosa   Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:45 pm

Great work Spanosa! You seem to have covered all your bases, and I cannot see any obvious flaw in your reasoning nor a valid counter argument. I would try to get a few more people to read over it though and provide a legitimate response so that we get more opinions floating around.

EDIT: This topic has been finalized and posted on Within Hubris. If you wish to comment on this, please direct yourself to the link below.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Within_Hubris/index.php?showtopic=2678&st=0&#entry928562

Locking now.

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